Private Lending in Real Estate

On this episode of Next Level American Dream, Abigail and Sean are joined by Max Keller. Max started his career as a teacher until he wanted something more and became a full time real estate investor and licensed agent, and began wholesaling, flipping, and building a rental portfolio of single family homes. He now has many best-selling books, and travels the country teaching others the advantage of this approach of lead generation by information through book writing.

Key Topics

• Wholesaling, flipping and building a rental portfolio of single family homes

• Approach of lead generation

• Private lending

Connect with Max:

• Youtube Channel

• LinkedIn

• Follow along with episode's transcript:

  SUMMARY KEYWORDS

  people, private lender, deal, book, business, borrower, real estate, private lending, American Dream, lender, investors, talking, Max, started, money, exit strategies, private money lenders, thinking, teach, pay

  SPEAKERS

  Sean Thomson, Abigail Thomson, Max Keller

  Sean Thomson 00:00

  Welcome to the Next Level American Dream Podcast brought to you by Thomson Multifamily Group. Your hosts, Abigail and Sean, will discuss how you can take your American Dream to the next level, through real estate investing, business practices, and personal development. Join us as we share our experiences as a father daughter duo who are trying to accomplish our goal of financial freedom. We hope you learn more about how to define and achieve your American Dream. Here's another episode of Next Level American Dream.

  Sean Thomson 00:33

  On today's episode of Next Level American Dream, I talk with Max Keller. Max started his career as a teacher until he wanted something more and became a full-time real estate investor in licensed state. He began wholesaling, flipping and building a rental portfolio of single-family homes. Max found success with his investing and then looking for ways to take his business to the next level. He experimented with writing books that informed his target customer what the pros and cons of doing business are. Max now has many bestselling books and travels the country teaching others. The advantage of this approach of lead generation by information through book reading. Max is now sought after for his consulting, teaching, speaking, and assisting other investors with their book writing efforts, all while running his investment business.

  Sean Thomson 01:14

  Hi, Max, how you doing? Welcome to the Next level American Dream podcast.

  Max Keller 01:18

  Hey, great, glad to be here!

  Sean Thomson 01:19

  Yeah, thanks for being on the show. We really appreciate it. I know you got a lot going on. And I was really excited to get you on the program and talk about it. Tell the listeners a little bit about where you've come from in your investment career and kind of where you're headed now and what you have going on?

  Max Keller 01:34

  Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Max Keller, I'm a full time real estate investor. I'm out of Fort Worth, Texas. And I came into real estate investing, sort of by chance it was about five years ago from when this recording, I was teaching math. I thought I would be a teacher my whole life. Like educating and helping other people is like a dream job. Basically, I taught algebra, love math. And I got into real estate just part time my friend had gotten into it. He has a big family like me. And he said, Hey, I bought a rent house, I started looking into it, I was just going to do it part time. And that was what my goal was just to get maybe a rental or two a year, or starting to notice that the American dream was not panning out, I was doing everything they told me to do. I got the bachelor's degree, I got the master's degree in teaching, I went to all the professional development, I did summer school, I tutored on the side, my wife worked at our church, American dream was was kind of fading away. And I knew I had to do something. So I so that's what I did, I started getting into it, it started to take over real estate can be a very consuming business. So you know, if you're there so many advantages, we'll talk about investing in real estate passively. So amazing, because there's so much work that needs to happen to put all these deals together and do them right, it's kind of hard to be a part time deal maker, you really have to do it full time to make sure everything's getting taken care of the way it's supposed to. So I made that leap, I flipped about 120 houses, I have a publishing business. So I'm a best selling author of multiple books. And now I help my students get involved in books and help them basically just educate and teach, whether it's private lenders or prospective homeowners, you know why they should choose them? So that's, that's what I do in a nutshell.

  Sean Thomson 03:29

  Yeah, and I think that's your gift, really, I was telling you this earlier, you look at how to sort of come at a problem from a completely different perspective than most people aren't in the real estate space, you know, your marketing in a completely unique way, in a different way. And I think, in a lot of ways it is, it's a tremendous amount of value that you bring to a situation just in your marketing, most marketing is kind of like thought of as just sort of just the stuff, you know, copy you these quick copies, the sound bites and things and you take a very educational approach to your marketing. And I think that's that that's one of the unique things about you that I don't think anybody else in the country is doing at all, other than the people that you're working with, and your students and things. So tell me kind of how you, you've been an investor for a while, and you were a teacher before. So I guess you were just compelled to become a teacher now. Tell me how that kind of transitioned. And then and what what sort of things you have going on in greater detail right now for educating investors and helping them increase their business?

  Max Keller 04:29

  Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, there's really two kinds of sales out there. There's hunters who go and try to chase people down until they kind of submit and then there's trappers who are like, you know, let me show you what I can offer and just kind of share and attract. And so I didn't really like the high pressured sales approach. And I just, to me, the way that I show somebody that I care about them, is I find out what they're struggling with and try to help them and a lot of times what we're struggling with is the Not like a character flaw, per se, it's just like there's an educational gap. You know, I, I taught probably 1400 students in seven years. And what I noticed was is that, you know, when the, when the kids weren't doing well, in school, it wasn't because there's anything wrong with them is there was a gap, there's something they didn't know, they just didn't have the knowledge, the information. And then once I got them the knowledge and the information, they did amazing, you know, it's like, it's the same with just everybody. It's like a universal people thing. And so my, my role when I was starting to buy houses, that was noticing that a lot of the people I was buying houses from they were struggling, and they really didn't understand what was going on what the options were. So I have pretty much two choices, I could just teach them these things in the living room for three or four hours, which is not scalable. Or I could, you know, start putting more of my thoughts down in video or writing actually started with video, and it was super unnatural. Just talking to a camera. I don't know who's good at that. I wasn't at all, I'm more about people. And so my mentor at the time, had written a bunch of books and said, well, Max, why don't you write a book and I just said, I don't know how to do that, you know, all the things we tell ourselves, you have to be very careful what we tell ourselves because it's probably going to be true. And any and I said, he said, I'll walk you through it. And I go, Well, I won't even know what to write about. He said, Well, who is the person that you're trying to help the most? And what are they struggling with the most? You know, I knew who that was in my market from my deal flow business, it was seniors, because they've lived in their house for 40 years. You know, they're moving sometimes to like a senior home, there's death in the family. There's health issues, there's just so much going on at once. And so it was a huge educational gap. And so I filled that with all the questions that they would ask me, and pretty much just my first book, home to home was just about, it's just basically a big FAQ of all the questions, seniors and their adult children had asked me in the living rooms, and I started passing it out to people, it started getting passed around, I started speaking at like larger events, and I saw there was all horsepower with this. So the other audience that we serve is people who are thinking about becoming private lenders. And so Brant Philips in Houston wrote an amazing book on private lending, he did the same thing as me, we just didn't know each other. And he was educating people on how to become a private lender. Because I mean, right now, it's scary out there. And people are not sure what to do. They've worked 3040 years, they're ready for the American dream, the retirement, and they don't know how they're going to do it. And so there are no safe investments and nothing is 100% secure. But I think now more than ever, people are looking for options. And Brandt felt the same way. So he wrote a book that pretty much if he was sitting across from a brand new private lender for eight hours or six hours, it's all the things he would teach them, but even look for him. And so that is a that's a really powerful way to serve your business. Now we have students that co author our book, they're part of our national network, and they spread this curriculum all over the nation because, you know, I'm not in Sheboygan, I'm not in New Jersey. But there's people who are invested in the stock market right now. And they're looking for different options. They want to get involved in real estate, but they don't know how. So our authors, you know, co author of the book with us, we create a Local Edition, and they give it out as a teaching tool. And it wins two ways. You know, one, it helps that that potential private money lender, because and we'll go into this in this call, I mean, if you're going to get involved in real estate, and you've never invested in real estate before, there's, there's a checklist. And if you're just just going on your gut and just, you know, not really vetting it out, and not sure what you're even looking for, it can be big problems. And so, so, so that's a, it's a great way to make sure that every thing about it, if everybody that you working with has gone through basically six hours of knowledge and getting really coached up, I just don't think they're going to be as many problems on the back end, because they know what to expect. They know, hey, if this is not a fit, and so it creates a better relationship that creates a faster relationship. And just there's just better outcomes through education.

  Sean Thomson 09:20

  So Max, so I, what I have is I have two types of investors, I have some of my investors, they don't want to really delve deeply into real estate investing, and they just, they just count on me, they trust me completely with their money, they just give me their money and I invested I take care of everything and they know enough to know if I'm doing something improper or incorrect, but they're not. They're not really diving deep into learning. The business of investing, right? So and they like it that way they want to they want to be there. They're you know, computer programmers or their teachers or whatever. And that's what they want to do and they want me to worry about being the expert in real estate. And then I also have investors that have been doing real estate investing for a long time. And they know a lot about it, I have, I actually have real estate investors that work with me as lenders that have been doing commercial real estate for, I don't know, 30 or 40 years, some of these guys, and they're super smart with real estate, incredibly smart, you know, and they invest with me as well. So I have different levels of investors that either know a lot or very little about investing. And the relationship I think, with those two people is, it's the people that are kind of unsure, you know, they don't know me well enough to trust me on that level, and they don't understand the business well enough to know when it's a good investment, right. And I think those people that are kind of in the middle, are the ones that struggle the most. And like you were talking about, and you know, having the book and educating them, I think one of the biggest struggles for someone who wants to become a private lender, is finding someone like me or someone like you, that fully understands our business, that we are vetting deals on a very high level, we're only taking on projects that we are fully committed to ourselves. And you know, we're completely at risk as well, you know, all those sorts of things that you would look for in a in a partner in sort of this situation. I think most people would really love to be a real estate investor and invest in these unconventional types of investments other than the stock market, but they just, they struggled to find guys like us to partner with and to be involved with. So I think having the book is a great way, what you're talking about is a great way for people to educate themselves a little bit. And also to get to know how to get to know investors as well. So that's, that's a very, very unique way to go about what you're doing. And I like that loss.

  Max Keller 11:44

  Yeah, yeah, there's definitely cool. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, there's a lot of gaps when somebody is brand new. And there, there's kind of two sets of things, you know, new investors really need to keep an eye out for. One is the misconceptions. So they heard through the grapevine, like Marvin Gaye says, but it was not the right information. So there's, you know, how do we figure out what's, you know, fact from fiction, because, you know, you've heard about a lot of things, but you know, sometimes we hear things that are too good to be true. Sometimes we hear things that, you know, are too bad to be true, the truth is usually in the middle, so kind of step one on the private lender journey, is identifying what do you already know? And if it's, you know, real or not, and then, you know, step two is, you know, the the unknowns or the unknown unknowns, what is what are really the five or six things, you know, there's there's probably 3040 different factors that go into, you know, the success of a real estate outcome, right, that's what we're looking for, it's it has to do with how you know, the deal, and how it was structured. And, and really, if it was a good deal or not from the beginning. And that's kind of sum of all the factors have different amounts of control. You know, there's economic factors that, you know, the dealmaker may not have a lot of control over you can't predict the future. There's the dealmaker, the, you know, the borrower, you know, vetting them out, and their character ability and skills, and exit strategy. So there's all these different things that come into play. But, you know, really, I like to take the 8020 approach with everything. And so I encourage, you know, my private lenders to learn all the details, but, you know, really, there's three things like if I'm just thinking off the top of my head, that are really going to affect the outcome of if a deal is going to be successful or not. And so if you want, Sean, we can just kind of break into a couple of those, if you like?

  Sean Thomson 13:38

  Yeah, that'd be wonderful, Max. That that would be helpful for people listening, for sure. So go, if you don't mind, go through those.

  Max Keller 13:45

  Sure, yeah. So I think that number one is, is the borrower, because ultimately, you want to do business with people that you know, like, and trust, and they need to, you know, they need to be able, they need to be able to demonstrate that they're running their business, the way that you would run yours, or you're comfortable with, I agree with you a lot of private money lenders, you know, my private money lenders, they're dentists, they're business owners, you know, a lot of them aren't real estate professionals, and but they want to participate. And so, you know, when when they have that trust, you know, that helps a lot. And, you know, trust is something that takes years and years to create, and, you know, it can vanish instantly. So, and talk is cheap, you know, so I would say everybody who's on here who's interested in doing private lending is when you're looking at the borrower, talk to other people that they've worked with, you know, if they've worked with other people before in that space, I'm sure that they've probably blended with somebody, whether it's a community bank, you know, whoever, so find out who they've worked with, and get to understand, you know, them and just sort of their philosophy. You know, there really are two kinds of philosophies I've seen. When it comes to the borrower. There's the ones who are like, Well, you know, this is a business deal, and there's always risk. And if it works great, but if not, you know, that's the risk you take, and then there's, and then there's kind of the other spectrum, which is like, you know, folks would rather take a bullet to their brain than not pay somebody back, you know, I, and so I'm not casting judgment on either one. I mean, I'm, I'm more on that side of the ladder, but it's just you have to make sure it lines up with, you have to, you know, if you work with somebody, make sure they line up with your values. So the borrower, I would say, is very, very important. That's number one. Number two is obviously the deal. I mean, how its structure and how it's bought. Now you hear all the time, you know, you make money in real estate, when you buy that when you sell. And so is this really, is this a deal where there's true value from the very beginning? Or is this somebody who's just stretching, and it's really a skinny deal? You know, so I'm a little understanding the deal, and how it all works, as they would be number two. And then the last one, number three, is the exit strategies. And one of the ways I felt like for me, just speaking, from my personal experience, when I started building private money, relationships, one of the things that I just kind of always felt was the right way to think about it is a lot of exit strategies. And so when I would, when I would write up people will get to know me. I mean, there's really no shortcut to that it takes time. You know, so that's just gonna take some time and some energy. But once the private lender, you know, does that they've kind of done that once. Then the second the deal is, you know, do you have enough knowledge and information about real estate? You know, how quickly can you get that to identify if the numbers really make sense. And then the last one is the exit strategies, and having multiple exit strategies, I think is really important, as many as you can, because things change, you know, we've seen a lot of changes in the last 12 months. And so, you know, like, when I would do my, just kind of one pagers, and I would put the, I would put, you know, what the deal was, what our kind of our rehab improvement plan was, and I'd have some exit exit strategy number one, and number two, number three, just kind of like a waterfall. And yeah, if exit strategy one doesn't work, it's the outcome isn't going to be as great, obviously. I mean, that's usually how it works. But you got to have a backup plan. And so and then I would just provide comps and let you know, people look and see what those are, and, but just give out that information. But if you have a really, if you're working with somebody who whose integrity matches your own, who's the borrower, the dealmaker, if it's the right person, and they they know how to structure a deal and find good value. You know, they're they're shaking the trees and looking in the bushes to find good deals, they found a good deal, and it's set up correctly. And then, you know, there's multiple exit strategies. So if something changes and can't refinance out this way, but you can do this instead, those are some, those are probably the three fastest ways to put the odds in your favor. And, you know, the ones that you'll get the most horsepower from, there's other ones we talked about in our book, we'll you know, get people a copy of it or something like that, you know, get introduce people to some resources, put some links down below. But it's really, really important to do a little bit of homework on the front end. And kind of once you do, it's built in, you know, real estate changes, but not that much. Like how did that out a borrower doesn't change that much how to analyze a deal doesn't change that much. So you can kind of as a private money lender, you can build in some skills, learn them one time, and then be able to use them for 5, 10, 20 years and get a an economic benefit.

  Sean Thomson 18:53

  Yes, okay, I want to I want to review some of that I, this is one of my little things I like I'd like to go back over things. But those three things that you talked about, I was thinking about my as you were talking, I was thinking about how I sort of conduct my own business. And I was thinking that those, those three things build on themselves, right. So if you've got a great person that you're dealing with the borrower itself, if they're, if they're running your business with integrity, if they're running their business, you know, properly, the way they look at deals is going to be, you know, exceptional way of looking at deals too, so that they're not going to put themselves at risk or their investors at risk, because they're just that type of person. Right? So they're going to vet their deals properly. And then they're going to have, if there's, if they're smart, like I you know, like I do, they're going to have multiple exit strategies, just because that's part of their game plan. You know, I know in my single family business, you know, I bought houses for $1,000. But then I put $85,000 worth of repairs into them, you know, so I don't mind taking on some of those projects into some of that risk because I have the experience to do it. I have the knowledge to do it. I have the ability to do it, right. So it seems like to most people that that seemed like just a crazy, crazy idea, you know, buy a house for 1000 bucks, and it's been $85,000, fixing it, selling it for 135 or $4,000, or whatever it is. But to me, it was it was, it was a bit scary. But I made sure that I had, I had an out throughout the whole process, what I can say, Okay, if I can't, if I buy for this, I can't get what I need to do, I can do this. So you have sort of these plans, these exits that you can take throughout the whole thing. So when I when you were talking there, I think I think if you if you follow those three fundamentals, I think they kind of they'll kind of build on each other. If you find a good person to to work with, they're going to conduct their business well, and they're going to have you know, just multiple ways to to profit from that deal, just as organically in their business, at least that's what I do, I know for sure. So I used to run my business to where I would have, I would actually have four exit strategies as a part of my process. So I would go, I would put a property out for wholesale at a specific number. If that didn't work, I didn't like the number, I would just move to the process. And I would eventually get to a retail property if I needed to. But I would make money, I would make exactly what I wanted throughout the process. So I kind of had a four step exit strategy on every property that I did. So I, I see exactly how that's beneficial to lenders too, because then you've got, you know, as a lender, you've got someone that you're secure with, and they're always there, they're always looking for ways to make that investment work for everybody.

  Max Keller 21:35

  Yeah, I agree. And, you know, it works both ways, too. So it's not just the private lender isn't just interviewing the borrower, you know, the borrower is interviewing the private lender. And what's cool is, you can actually use the same three criteria. So is this a private lender, somebody who has a background, a character that you want to align with? You know, that's step one, step two, when it comes to the deal is, you know, is this somebody who kind of doesn't doesn't really let you be the real estate professional, and they're micromanaging, you know, the, the analytics and the numbers of the deal? Or are they you know, so aloof, that they're not even paying attention or responding, getting back to you, because you got to, it is a little bit of a give and take, you know, it's not, you know, just sending a check is okay, but you know, we're looking for a partnership here, and it can be 99. One, as far as time, but we still need that one, you know, there's still need, you know, the your checklist is smaller as a private money lender, and different and different, you know, investors and different borrowers require different things, some require their private money lenders, due to the nature of the deals, they're in to be a lot more responsive. And, you know, their deals are super time sensitive. Some of them, it's more planned out. So matching that up is key. And then the way I think about exit strategies, from a, if I'm the borrower, and I'm interviewing a private lender, is I'm thinking about expectations, because really, what are exit strategies, that's after the, the the money has already been, you know, put into the investment, you're already invested at that point financially. So exit strategies, to me is like, managing the future expectations, you know, managing, you know, because, you know, if you're in a project, and it's a three year commitment, you don't want somebody who, you know, gave you their last $25,000 or $50,000. And if one little thing changes in their life, you know, they need all their money back, you know, you try to make that happen, of course, but you know, so like really talking through, okay, if this happens, then what are we going to do? If this happens? What, what would you want to do, and really get a sense of how comfortable you know, you're the lender really is if you have to go to a different exit strategy. So that's kind of the way you can reverse it, because it really needs to be a win win on both sides. And if you follow that kind of same formula, it really will be and that's why we like to educate on the front end, because most problems in relationships are due to communication. And so if you do done a lot of that at the beginning on the front end, then, you know, it gets rid of a lot of miscommunications.

  Sean Thomson 24:18

  Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it. I never really thought about it with my lenders before, but I do have that relationship with my lenders, where I look at, I do have a conversation with everybody that lends to me, and I do look at how we get along with each other. And if our if, you know, kind of our basic thinking is aligned. And you were talking about, I think our business is a much more high touch business, too. It's not like you're just giving some random anonymous machinery in Wall Street, your money and they're kind of doing what they do with it. You know, whatever happens happens, right? So I had recently had a couple of sales that I was doing, where the buyers lender had to post Because you know, the, the interest rates are super low and COVID. And all these things are going on. And so the lenders are coming to us saying, Hey, we need two more weeks to process this loan, which pushes out our closing day for three more weeks. And I have to go to my lenders to say, Hey, I know you expected a payoff date of this, or the payoff date is now going to be this, you know, so it's a different type of business. It's a very interactive relationship that a lender has with a borrower like me, especially on this private side. So I think that flexibility has to be there. So all those things you were talking about in terms of betting is critical. So let's talk about I guess you mentioned the book, too. So let's just talk a little bit about how they, I guess people can access the book is that we sometimes you can send someone the book, the private lender book?

  25:47

  Yeah, what we'll do, yeah, what we'll do is that so my, if I had like a title, it would probably be like, either Advocate or Watchdog. I just like I like, I don't like it when people take advantage of people because they don't know anything. And so I'm sort of on this. I mean, I have my business, and I have a family and I have hobbies. But I'm really what I'm really passionate about is like this quest to find and educate people before somebody finds out. They're not educated and takes advantage. Oh, yeah, it happens, you know, at all levels. And so and so yeah, so we've got a book. And what I'll do is this, I'll give you, you know, your audience, my, I'll give you my contact information, and then you can share it in the show notes. And then for the first, you know, 10 people who respond, we'll, we'll send you a copy of it. And it's, it's called the private lending simplified. And in the bucket, it talks about important things, you know, like, it talks about the reasons why private lenders don't get paid back in a deal. I mean, don't you think you want to know what that is, you know, some people go on these shows, they just talk about happy, fluffy stuff all the time. And we're not trying to like scare people away, but you need to get all the information. And so you know, the bottom line is, is that there's, there's really two reasons why private lenders who invest in real estate don't get their money back. And it's either because the deal fell apart, and the person set is who's the deal maker, something went sideways in the deal maker doesn't has the capacity to make it right. But just doesn't want to, and I'm not placing judgment, I'm just saying that happens in real estate deals fall apart, they get messed up, and investors can lose money. And so that's why you really got to do your homework, before you just jump in with somebody because you may be taking a risk that's a lot higher than then you think, and so. But on the other side, if you're working and and everybody listening, they'll gonna determine what risk is right. But on the other side, if you find somebody you know, who's who's got the all the things that we talked about everything lines up, you know, I think it can be a really, really great way to invest. And I like real estate too. And I like tangible. I don't like make believe so. So the two ways that you don't get paid back as a as a private lender, is if the deal goes sideways, the deal maker is not contractually obligated to pay you back and they choose not to. So that's number one. But number two, is the scariest one. Because the first one if somebody has the capacity, they're going to pay him back. You know, I've paid back my lenders, I've never lost money on a deal. But I've I've paid my lenders more than I ended up making on the deal. I mean, I've done some skinny deals, I'll go do rehabs and farmers branch code enforcement, I'll blow you up. Okay, so I my lender, when the deal took a lot longer, and everything just got chopped, you know, they made as much or more than me, I'm always gonna pay them first. But the second one is the scariest one. And this is the one for your folks listening that they really, really need to focus on is when the borrower no longer has the capacity to pay you back. They can be the nicest salt of the earth person in the world. And they can have all your core values. And everything went looked fine from the beginning. But now it's gone sideways, that person wants to pay you back, but they don't have the money. And and then if they don't have the money, you're not getting paid back. And so I would say if you're going down the private lender journey, make sure that that person has the capacity. Well, where does that come from? A lot of that comes from the second thing that we talked about, which is the deal structure, how much discount was there really at the beginning? How much room Do you really have in the deal for mistakes? Because if there's no room, and it's one of those deals where everything has to go perfectly, then if everything goes wrong, you know, then that's when you can get into some trouble not got a great person got a great heart would love to pay you back. They just can't. That's a big problem. And so, you know, are your rehab funds that you're sending out are they getting used to Put into the rehab, or are they using to is the operator the deal maker using them to pay operating expenses, and they're not that money isn't all going into the deal, or they're using that money to finish another deal. You know, these are all things as adults that just have to watch out for and we have to pay attention for. And so that's, that's kind of what we teach in the book is how to really vet that out. You don't have to become a professor and private lending, but you, you know, you may want to consider doing a little bit of homework on the front end, because it'll, it'll just make the outcomes that you have, you know, a lot better for you and your family so you can realize the American Dream.

  Sean Thomson 30:40

  right? So you're referencing mostly single family deals, and you like one to one deal. So one lender, one house, the syndications that I'm putting together now it's, you know, it's multiple lenders, Equity Partners in the deal. And those are, those are looked at on a on a very, you know, much different level. So, you know, I'm doing multimillion dollar deals, you know, I don't obviously have multi millions of dollars laying around to pay it back. But the deal structure has to be set so that everybody has the best opportunity for capital preservation number one, and then and then profits, actually, as a secondary goal, for sure. So we look at when we do our deals, we do look at, you know, if everything does go sideways, is everybody going to walk out of here with their money, at least, including myself? You know, that's, that's a concern that I have in every deal, too. So, you know, that's definitely something to consider for sure. And you're looking at things.

  Max Keller 31:37

  You know, one thing I'll echo with that is, so I, I went to New York about, I guess, about two years ago to go to the family office club meeting. And so I was there one of my friends as a charter member. So he invited me and I met these amazing families who some of them have, you know, 10s of millions, I met a billionaire, which I don't know how many of those are, but there's not that many. So that was kind of cool. I met the family who bought the Sears Tower in Chicago cash, with some other families, you know, like, pretty amazing stuff. Yeah. So we met at dinner, and then both of those folks, and then the next day, we had the meeting, and the meeting was, you know, angel investors, hedge fund managers. And it was really cool. It was I learned so much, you know, I just really think, education and then taking it and applying it and putting in action. That's the magic formula. That's really how you real that's how you realize the American dream. You just, you do those things you you always learning and then you put into action. That's it. So we're there. And we're listening to these panels, you know, and they're talking about their results, their financial results for the previous year, the previous two years, and they're using words like made off exposure, which is code word for, they lost a lot of money with Bernie Madoff. And these are 160 IQ people who live in penthouses, you're like, I flew in from Fort Worth, Texas, you know, my suit. I'm buying houses from people, you know, like, I'm not wearing suits to my appointments, I think I paid more to get my suit, tailor than it actually cost at kmG. You know, I'm just trying to blend in and learn, right, but I'm definitely feeling a little out of my element. These are some of these people walked to streets to wear across from Carnegie Hall at the hotel Edison. And there they live in that neighborhood. And they're talking about made off exposure. So if the smartest people like in finance got taken for all this money, if you're listening, don't think for a second that it can't happen to you. And so do your homework, and I'm not trying to scare people because Real Estate's amazing, but you got to do your homework, because you have to look at both sides of the point. So that's number one. But number two, is they these these managers were talking about how they look at deals, how they evaluate borrowers, how they evaluate exit strategies, and these are the single family homes in haltom city that I'm doing. These aren't the multimillion dollar, you know, deals that you're doing. This is 100 million dollar office complex, right? This is a $600 million skyscraper. And what's so interesting, and they wouldn't let us bring in electronic like devices to type. So I just I wrote like handwritten notes. I go back and look at it. And one of the things at the break that I noticed, as I turned to the gentleman who invited me and some of our friends at the table, I said, you know, I'm over here just in Texas. I mean, I'm doing 2030 deals a year, I'm super happy. Compared to being a teacher the income is like amazing. I feel like I hit the lottery. But what was interesting was, is that the way that these the who's who of real estate investing on these panels, they just ran a different panel every every hour, it was like 36 amazing people, but the way that they that deals, borrowers, exit strategies, like exactly the same Same as the way you look at deals, and the way that I look at deals. And that was so remarkable. I went there thinking that I was we were going to be like talking about outer space. It was like a bunch of Ilan musk kind of people running around there. But it wasn't it was so similar, the only difference was zeros. There was just more zeros. And so I really feel like wherever you are, in your private, you know, money lending journey, is if you get up on these three main fundamentals, how to really pick the right borrower, how to just understand how the deal structure and make sure there's some discount and some safety, and then how to make sure there's some exit strategies. Like you said, if it goes sideways, you at least get your principal back. Those three fundamentals apply at the single family space, the multifamily space, and then the larger giant project space. I thought that was kind of an interesting takeaway.

  Sean Thomson 35:52

  Yeah, that is interesting. Actually, you were scaring me for a second there, you brought it back around. That's good, Max!

  Max Keller 35:59

  Yeah, like I said, when somebody's telling you one side of the story, my mind automatically thanks. Well, what about the other side, you know, if you're, if you're looking at deals, I mean, you know, Sean, you run an amazing business, and people will be lucky to find you. But, you know, we've known each other for for many, many years, and, and I've never experienced anything, except, you know, high integrity and high quality from every conversation. And so, so I kind of think of, like, we talked about in our book, you know, like, what are kind of the warning signs, when somebody is approaching you, and they are trying to get you to, you know, participate in their deals, what are the some of the things that you should look out for, and, you know, there's a lot of them. But usually, if you're how, you know, you're kind of getting maybe with the right person is, when you're building a real conversation, a real relationship, you're getting to know that other person, it's sort of like dating, it's kind of like dancing, it's not instant, you know, you're, you didn't probably ask your, you know, your wife, or your, you know, your spouse to marry you on the first date. And so if you're, if you're in the private lending space, and you want to get in it, and you're frustrated, because you just can't seem to find anybody, the number one thing I would say to watch out for is if like, the first minute that you meet somebody, they're talking about their deal, and they're asking, you know, if you can start like funding it, you know, and that's kind of a red flag, like, you know, this person is, is just doesn't have their program really set up isn't a proactive, you know, thinker. And I just feel like, the best way to build that relationship is to get to know the other person first and add with value, you know, we we teach our students how to how to teach how to show people, both sides of the coin, take them out to a property, you know, things like that just kind of common sense. So, just as much as private lenders need to know what to look for, they also need to know what, like sets off alarms, so that you don't get caught up with the, with the wrong person. And you can make the best decision, you know, for you and your family.

  Sean Thomson 38:07

  Yeah, and I think one of the primary one of the primary benefits or things that I think of mostly is that I tried to think of, you know, when when I'm dealing with a new lender, coming into my space, in my business, I'm an open book to them. You know, this people are giving me their they're not not their entire life savings, but they're giving me a large part of their life savings. And I take that very seriously. And one of the things that I know is happening is that they're afraid, right, they're afraid that I'm going to lose their money, or do something to take take this money away from them that they've saved for, decades for. And so one of the things I'm really conscious of is saying, hey, look, you ask me any question, I'm going to give you the answer. That's true, right? So for me, I think that that just that having that comfort level with each other is critical. And then knowing that, if they have any issues, that there's transparency there, there's the I'll tell them exactly what's going on, I'll tell them what flooring I put in the house, what it cost, when it's when it was installed, what we're planning for next, you know, anything they want to know, so that they have a comfort level with what's happening. You know, most of the stuff that they're concerned about, is not super important, but it is to them, right? So, you know, I don't know what color My house is gonna get painted. But if they want to know that information, I'll find out for that, you know, that mean? So it doesn't matter what questions they have, I think if they think it's important, and they want to know about it, transparency is critical. So we look at what value we're bringing to that person. And we also look at how to convey to them any information that makes them feel good about what their participation is with our business. I think that's important. And if you're if you're, if you're a lender, and your borrower is not, doesn't have that same mindset that hey, whatever you need to know it's no problem. Just call me or come over whatever we're going to lunch, we'll run through the deal. If you if you're if you're on borrow doesn't have that same attitude. And you might be, that might be an indicator that you want to put the brakes on. And I think but I, you know, there's guys like young guys like myself, and we know hundreds of guys that do this business that are excellent at this business. And there's plenty of people out there for people to get into business with the best with that, really our high level players and they're doing this seriously, their whole their, you know, their families are counting on them to every day to do this. They're counting on themselves to make it successful. So it's a shared sort of, I don't know what you call it, shared responsibility for success, I guess. But anyway, so there's a lot of people out there that are available to me, it's just hard to find, I guess for us, it seems normal, because we're around investors all the time. But someone that's out as a school teacher, like you were, you know, how do you find a guy like me, are you? And how do you get to know them? So that's, that's kind of the struggle, I think, and your book may be a good way for them to say, hey, once I do kind of find somebody, here's a good way to go about that. So I'm glad that you're gonna share that book with some people. And if anybody's really interested, that's listening. Really interesting. Instead of becoming a lender, please hit us up or hit max up, we'll get the information in there, I can get the book and then you know, get started with that. Because real estate investing is, I think, is the best vehicle for anybody to get involved in on whatever level it is, it's just I think, Real Estate's The best way to go. So anyway, Max, so you mentioned it several times the American dream, and I knew your story before. And I didn't put it together really, that you went from being a teacher to being bester. I just think of you as an investor, because I didn't know your previous life. But we always ask everybody, you know, the name of the podcast is Next Level American Dream. So we always ask everybody, you know, what is the American Dream mean to you? And then what are you? Or what are some of the things that you've done or found in your life that have helped you take it to the next level, so if you don't mind to share with everybody kind of what you see as the American Dream is for you. And then if you have something that they can use in their life, to help them take to the next level, or what you've used in your life to take it to the next level?

  Max Keller 42:02

  Sure, well, you know, this answer will be short, it's just choices. American Dream is choices. There's people all over the world, they don't, it doesn't matter what capacities they have, what you know, mental aptitudes, they have interest, they don't have a lot of choices. And it's sad, and I really hope that when people, you know, vote, they do it, you know, thinking of that in mind, do we want to be in a country where we want to have choices? Or do we want to live in a country where there's not a lot of choices, and I feel like the American Dream is, it's about choices, it's about us, you know, being able to, you know, depend on ourselves and, and bet on ourselves and have a lot of options for how we, you know, live on the planet. So, that's, that's what it is, to me, being involved in real estate has created a lot of new choices that that wasn't available in my other profession. And so the way that, you know, I, the resources that I could share would probably just be reading just being a lifelong reader. I never was I'm dyslexic, so it's harder to read, you know, I'm not making excuses, but just it is. So I only read probably seven books for the first 35 years of my life, I just use the same book over and over to do book reports. And I didn't even know I had dyslexia. I just avoided reading. And then when I got in real estate, I got into mastermind at the very beginning, as I was on deal number two, I got into a Mastermind with Jim Ingersoll in Virginia, super high integrity guy. There's like some people you would invest with. And there's some people you would like, let them watch your kids. Like he's at that level. If you're at that level, you know, there's, there's not it's a smaller group, right? Is mastermind and I noticed everybody was reading. And I wasn't, and I was had a little competitive thing going with me and my friend Connor Steinberg, who helped help me when I was getting started in real estate. He's about a year ahead of me, he lives in the area. And so, so I said, Man, I'm just not figuring this out as fast as I want to, and I'm not getting as many leads as I want. He's like, Well, are you reading? I'm like, not really, you know, a little bit here and there. He's like, well, that's your problem. Say, because, you know, I'm reading a lot. And as long as I've read more books than you, you know, you're just like a, like, a friendly, competitive thing. He's like, you know, I'm just, I'm gonna crush you, like, you're not gonna be able to compete with me, because I'm going to have knowledge that you don't have, and I'm going to apply it. And I'm going to be able to create solutions that you're not gonna be able to create, and I'm going to be able to create them faster. And I'm going to win. And I was like, oh, made me so mad. So I started reading I found out I was dyslexic, that with a coach, she helped me read a lot better start doing audiobooks. And then I started reading like a book a week, which is crazy. like Charlie used to make fun of people who would read a book if there was a movie. I would be like, why would you do that? Just watch the movie. It's faster an idiot. Turns out I didn't know anything. You know. And coming out of college, they don't, that I take responsibility, but they don't really prep you to like, go out and read. It's like, go get a job, and I just shut my brain off. So I think how you really put it into action is got to read God gotta listen to podcasts like this, you got to educate yourself. Because if you take fear is based on the unknown, and education, no matter what political party, they all agree on this. Education is better outcomes is just That's it, you get better outcomes if you have more education. So, so read, get the knowledge, consider doing that if you haven't, and then put it into action. American Dream time, it's really not that complicated. I'm so glad that, that we're here. So glad that I know you. And I'm really just thankful for you know, you allow me to be on your your show today.

  Sean Thomson 45:51

  Yeah, well, I'm glad you came on Max, really, honestly. And I want to say that you, you've taken your challenge of reading, and you've really turned it around. I mean, you're you're one of the better. I've listened to you talk about the books you've read or listened to. And you really comprehend and things sink in for you. And you carry that with you and you utilize it in your life. I struggle with that a little bit. I try to read a ton. If I can I do a lot of audiobooks, and I don't do nearly what I what I wish I could or did or want to do, right? But I sometimes find myself daydreaming and you know, kind of drifting off in the book, and I have trouble sort of taking the information and applying it. And I know that you do a really good job of that. So let's say you've taken a challenge, and you've turned it into something that really has benefited you a ton. So that's a good job.

  Max Keller 46:40

  Yeah, it's great critical thing, too. I think about it, like, I mean, I remember I don't it was a college readiness class. And I didn't even think I was going to college, I didn't have a lot of money growing up, and it was getting pretty expensive. And I just didn't really have a plan. My parents were really busy working, I appreciate them, you know, but I remember in 10th grade, I did a book report. And the book was, I think it was number the stars, which is that same book I just kept doing for every book report. And I remember the teacher said, I got like a C which I was like, Hey, I'm fine with that. I was one of those kids. I didn't I didn't get it. You know, I I was a late bloomer, when it came to like, you know, maturity. And she said, this book seems a little below your level. And now I write books. And like this picture right here was when I got the award for Innovator of the Year and Robert Kiyosaki gave me the award. And he asked me for a copy of my book, and I remember in oh five, standing in line at Barnes and Noble, and on Preston road, to go get his book. And I'm like, so you know, whether you believe in God or somebody out, you know, somebody else, whatever book you like, you know, I like the Bible, but you know, people like different things. And that's cool. But it's like, there's, there's gotta be some higher power out there. And I think that, you know, God has a plan for everybody. And so just don't limit yourself with your thinking. And, and I'll tell you one, that's kind of funny. I've never said this before. But it sounds kind of silly, because he's, he kind of, you know, sometimes he kind of gets a mixed review. But I remember when I first got started in real estate, I saw this video from Tai Lopez, and I didn't know who he was, he acts a little silly, but I mean, he's a smart dude. And I remember watching one of his videos, and he said, if you want to be successful, you have to rewire your brain. That's it, because the messages that you received in your brain is where you're at. It's just your your thinking drives everything. And so I really hang out with smart people like you and you know, Gary and and, you know, all these other great people that we've met in different masterminds is really allowed me to be open to that, rewire my brain, put some new stuff in. And now, you know, things are just like so different. And it can be the same way for anybody here listening, whether you're a dealmaker, and you're growing your real estate business. You know, if you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right. And the same thing with the private lending, if you're nervous, you're fearful. And it's usually based on the unknown. So get some knowledge, get some education, we'll put like my email address in the show notes. And the first 10 people to reach out we'll get you a copy of the book. And you know, just get coached up because it can be a really great space if you know what you're doing.

  Sean Thomson 49:17

  Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, I forgot to say you went from not reading at all to now writing books. So that's the funny thing. Let's if you don't mind tell people how they can reach out to you. Like I said, we will put this stuff in the show notes, but it can they reach out to your webpage, your Facebook or whatever you have going on.

  Max Keller 49:33

  Yeah, sure. Great. Sounds good. So my my business page on Facebook is Savior, like our Lord and Savior, Publishing House. So that's our book stuff. And then my homebuyer business is Savior Homebuyers. My email address that I checked the most is info@saviorpublishinghouse.com. But you know, just Max N Keller on Facebook. You You can just check me out. And if I can share, like I said the first 10 people that reach out, you know, we can't, can't do like 1000. I mean, your audience is blowing up. So we got to cap it at some point. But yeah, first 10 people, I'd love to have my assistant Kate send you a copy autographed copy of the book. I wrote the foreword in this one if you're into private lending, and then if you're a real estate investor, and you just want to, you know, chat, or connect, there's some ways to do that on there. And I hope you got some hope you learn something today, and I hope you are going to take it and run with it. I would love to hear you know, what success you you get from a you know what we talked about, but whatever it is put into action. There's like, feel good. You know, that's the first step educated, but then how do we put it into action. And what I do is I can't put everything into action. So I just pick like one. Usually, you know what you need to put into action because it's the thing you're avoiding. It's the thing that keeps give rolling over to your on your to do list every day. And usually the stuff that we want to do the least is what we need to be doing the most. So just say I'm changing, draw the line in the sand, put it at the beginning of your to do list for tomorrow, and just knock it out. And you can be living the American Dream.

  Sean Thomson 51:09

  Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thanks. Thanks. I really appreciate you coming on the show. We're just getting this started. We've done a few episodes. And I'm thankful that you're able to come on and share some of this with everybody. It's really great to have that book. I didn't know that you that there was such a resource out there. So I appreciate you sharing that with everybody. And hopefully we'll we'll have you back on to to talk about some other stuff as well!

  Max Keller 51:31

  Okay, love to help Have a great day.

  Sean Thomson 51:33

  Yeah. Thanks!

  Abigail Thomson 51:35

  Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level American Dream. If you would like to learn more about what we talked about today, want to contact a team directly, or are interested in passively investing and being a part of our deal room, head over to our website at www.thomsonmultifamilygroup.com Before you go, please leave a review! Your comments help us create more episodes for you to enjoy.