The Wheelbarrow Profits of Real Estate
On this episode of Next Level American Dream, Sean is joined by Gino Barabaro. Gino is the Co-founder of Jake and Gino LLC, who developed a successful framework called "Wheelbarrow Profits" that applies to the real estate market, while sharing this philosophy in their latest book, 'The Honey Bee.' During the interview, Gino shares his personal story about being a first generation immigrant, his career in the restaurant business, and his recent successes in Multifamily Investing
Key Topics
Why did you choose multifamily?
Can you walk us through your business' 3 pillars to multifamily?
Your website has a tally with the number of meals donated, can you tell us the story behind that?
Connect with Gino Barbaro:
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[00:00:00] Abigail: Welcome to the next level. American dream podcast brought to you by Thomson multifamily group. Your hosts, Abigail, and Sean will discuss how you can take your American dream to the next. The real estate investing business practices and personal development. Join us. As we share our experiences as a father, daughter, duo, who are trying to accomplish their goal of financial freedom, we hope you learn more about how to define and achieve your American dream.
Here's another episode of next level, American dream. Welcome to the next level American dream podcast. We have an incredible guest for you today, but first, please make sure you have subscribed if you have not already, but also love getting your feedback through likes comments, ratings, and reviews. Today.
Sean speaks with Gino Barbaro. Gino is the co-founder of Jake and Gino LLC who developed a successful framework called wheelbarrow profits that applies to the real estate market. While sharing this philosophy in their latest book, the honeybee [00:01:00] during the interview, Gino shares his personal story about being a first-generation immigrant, his career in the restaurant business, and his recent successes in multifamily investing.
If you found any value from today's episode, then please share it with a friend and help us grow. For more information on our sponsor, visit thomsonmultifamilygroup.com to start taking your American dream to the next level through passive investing.
[00:01:23] Sean: So welcome, Gino. Thanks for coming on the show. How you doing?
[00:01:25] Gino Barbaro: Sean, I'm doing great. How are you
[00:01:27] Sean: doing good. Well, let's start a little bit with some of your background. I, I you're, you're widely known in, in the multi-family syndication business, but let's, let's start with a little bit of where you came from and where you guys are now.
[00:01:37] Gino Barbaro: Well with a name like Sean, I'm assuming that you're Irish.
I married a nice Irish Catholic woman. We've got six children. We homeschool our six kids and that's probably the most important thing that anyone needs to know about me. It's for me, it's family first. And that's the reason why I got into multi-family. I own the restaurant for over 20 years. And for me, I loved it.
It was a family business. It was great for the first 10 or [00:02:00] 15 years. But the problem with that is it's hard work, which I love to do. But you're working on the weekends. You work it on the holidays. Christmas, new years, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, when everyone else is having fun and you're missing your kids' stuff.
And my values. You know, based on my children and then not being there on the weekends, it was really tough for me. You know, 2008 comes along and history repeats itself. And in oh eight, I said, I need to do something different. And for me, I had already bought a couple of different real estate deals, a mobile home park, which didn't go well, a strip mall, which didn't go well, I went out and I got coached.
I found a mentor in multifamily. And I started learning down that path. I met Jake in 2009 at there at the restaurant. He was a pharmaceutical rep and he was taking orders out of the kitchen and green bringing catering orders, doctor's offices, and 2011, he decided he had enough of New York. He knew it was gonna happen in New York.
He knew the craziness in New York. He left in 11 to go to Knoxville, Tennessee. And as a new Yorker, I said, where's Knoxville. I know where [00:03:00] Knoxville wasn't 2011. I know where it is now. And I know a lot of people in the, in this country, you know, we're not still is now, but back then it was an emerging city, one of the top four or five cities that emerged out of the recession.
Thankfully Jake went down. We started buying assets down there. And our 2013, it took us 18 months, but we found our first deal in 2013. And since then we've accumulated over, over you know, 15 or 1600 units. The majority of those we've bought internally ourselves, just me, Jake, and a partner, Mike, and you know, we've syndicated three deals.
We've done a little bit of everything. We'd like buying them ourselves, refinancing out the proceeds. Rolling them into the next deal. That's just something that we found we were comfortable with. And then we we've learned about syndication back in 17. We're like we need to do. And so we started syndicating deals back in 2018.
[00:03:47] Sean: So let's talk about, so what was, what was the decision you kind of brushed over it there a little bit, but what was the decision that, that brought you to multifamily you, you looked at, you said you had a couple mobile home and commercial property. What was [00:04:00] multi-family? The draw there?.
[00:04:01] Gino Barbaro: Well, it was like something, something very similar to what you said, Sean.
I didn't want single family homes. I don't want to have one here, one there. I didn't want to fix a flip. I worked in the restaurant. I already worked hard. I didn't want to have another job that created transactions for me. Transactions pay the bills. Equity makes you rich. I had worked seven days and Sunday night would come and I'd be in my kitchen and my kitchen table counting how much money we made every week.
I didn't want that with single family home. I wanted to create wealth and if I could buy one deal a year, All I was looking for was 25 units here, 20 units there. And again, the five years I may have a hundred units collected, but a hundred units, times a hundred dollars is 10 grand a month. That's what everyone strives for.
And I was really shortchanging myself, but Hey, when you grow up and you have six children and everyone's always telling you, well, there's a lot of college and there's a lot of weddings. I have newsflash everybody. My very first crappy deal. It's a 25 unit little crack den. We still own it. I refiled all the money out and it [00:05:00] nets us $8,000 a month every month.
My third is 2,500 bucks. Guess what? College has paid for all the kids on that one deal. That's what multifamily can do for you. It's a business. What I didn't realize is that you needed to be a multi-family entrepreneur. That's what we created. Jake and Gino is to become an entrepreneur. Most of us get into this racket thinking, Hey, let's buy a couple of deals and we'll we'll, we'll we'll work at passively.
There's nothing passive in life. If you want to be past. Become a limited partner start investing limited partners passively in Sean's deals or in Jake and Gino's deals. If you want to do it yourself, you don't have to do it all by yourself. You can hire and you can partner up with others. You start scaling up because it's a difficult business.
You need different skill sets. You need to be able to, you know, analyze these deals. Find these deals, create broker relationships, raise capital. Asset manage property manager. That's a lot of hats. That's why it's not called the Gino. It's called the Jake and [00:06:00] Gino because Jake is really good at certain things.
And I'm really good at certain things. He runs a property management day-to-day and I do the education day-to-day and what's amazing is they crisscross over so well, cause right now with, when you're doing education and you're writing books and you're speaking to thought leaders, there's a lot of things that you learn that you can implement in your business.
So for me, Getting it to multifamily was just what I wanted to make a couple of grand a month in passive income. And just to be able to pay those extra bills. Cause every time you get a $5,000 dental bill for your kids, it's like, man, I want five grand. I'm going to do. I was getting pissed off. So I was like, you know what, let me see if I can make a few bucks on the side and that'll help me out by getting through, getting through the rough patches, January and February in the restaurant business.
Isn't great. It's right after the holidays, a lot of snow wasn't getting paid. So for me, I didn't want the single family home and I knew. If I can go out and buy a single family home, why not? Why can't I buy a 10 unit or a 15 unit? And the other thing is Jake and myself, we're both working full time. So we can't have a small single family portfolio of four or five homes [00:07:00] scattered all around.
I'd rather have one property that has 10 units located in one central location. And I'm thankful for that, you know, that revelation early on or else I might be here saying, you know what I wish I'd thought about. Multi-family sooner.
[00:07:12] Sean: Yeah. That's what it, that's what happened to me. I went into single family thinking I had to, I didn't, I didn't know multi-family as an option for me because I thought hedge funds and re it's all controlled that stuff.
And once I figured it out, that that's the direction I definitely wanted
[00:07:24] Gino Barbaro: What made you think that what made you have that limiting belief?
[00:07:27] Sean: I, you know, I don't know. I just, ever since I was younger, I would drive by these apartments and say to myself, I wish I could just have one of those. I just want one of those.
And my life would be exactly what I needed to be. Right. And I always thought that it was just outside of my reach. I didn't know how much they cost. I didn't know how it operated, you know, but I always thought it was just outside of my reach and I never thought about it until I got into my single family business.
And I got to a place where I'm like, this is. This is not achieving my goals either. And I started looking at alternatives and luckily I met someone that was [00:08:00] doing it and, and opened my eyes to the possibility. But I don't know what it was. Yeah,
[00:08:04] Gino Barbaro: this is important, everybody that you're hearing this right now, we're both talking about achieving our own personal goals.
Single family didn't do it for Sean and myself. It just didn't and that's okay. But look inside of where you are and I'm going to tell you, if you think you can do single family, then you could do multi-family cause Jake and myself, we're not rocket science. This is not rocket science. What it is is a lot of education.
It's a lot of action and it's having a partner to hold you accountable. So when you're going through that nightmare closing right now, or you haven't had a deal in three months, you want. Your partner's not going to let you quit. And that's the important thing. That's why, you know, multi-family, I think any business is a team score cause you, when you're doing single family homes, if you're doing it at a super high level and you're closing 10, 12, 15 transactions a month, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of different levers going on over there.
You could make that, but then that becomes more transactional. You're not creating wealth with multi-family. I think you buy an asset like that. You hold it, [00:09:00] you increase that NOI you the refinance, or you hold it for the longterm. That's how we create wealth in real estate.
[00:09:07] Sean: Yeah, that's exactly why I've transitioned it in single family business.
You can make money, but you can't, it's really hard to establish wealth on a velocity level and on the commerce scale level, like you can with multi-family with multi-family, you don't have really, you don't have that, you know Transactional income and it turns actual cashflow, but you're definitely building a better future for yourself.
For sure. Let's talk about the three pillars you guys have the three pillars to multifamily investing is that that's right in your, in your education business.
[00:09:36] Gino Barbaro: We have two, two different pillars. We talk about the three-step framework and it's it's in our wheelbarrow profits book. It's the buy right.
The manage rate and the finance rate. And I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago. This could be applicable to, I think, almost any type of investing, if you're even single family investing. The first part is the Buy-Rite. I mean, when you're buying an asset, whether it's crypto, whether it's a single family, home, self storage, [00:10:00] multifamily create a buy right criteria for yourself right now, what are you looking for?
We're looking for assets that are a little bit newer. What cap rate are you looking for? What cash on cash are you looking for? What vintage. What market, what sub market job growth population growth, pitched roofs, meeting income. You have to set up a really strict criteria for yourself. So when there is an opportunity, you can really strike at it.
And you want to, you want to be able to be able to look at that and say, this is what I'm looking for. Now, that being said as the market cycle, Your, your, your, your buy right criteria is going to change, you know, 10 years ago. That first deal that I told you, I wouldn't be buying that first deal today at the price today, because it's just a much older asset.
It needs more CapEx. And the rate of returns aren't going to be there, but that asset 10 years ago, home run, but I'm not buying that kind of asset today. The manage right portion, you know, it's very, very simple. We discussed the manage right in our academy. Very important to have KPIs, [00:11:00] very important to have weekly pulses.
Or cadence of accountability where we're having, you know, are really priorities. Our weekly calls really important to have that. And you know, the three legs step framework has comes from what we call wheelbarrow profits, which is our academy. It's the three legged stool. The back leg is the buy right. The other leg is the finance right,
which we're going to talk about now. And the manage right is the wheel because the manage right's in constant motion, you're constantly managing these assets. The finance right is, you know, it has evolved over the last 10 years. I mean financing. When we started out community banks, creative financing, we love owner financing.
We've done over $20 million in owner finance deals with our coach, we wrote a book, creative cash with our coach, bill ham. We launched it about six months ago. MLO's, mass, lease options and seller financing sooner or later, we're going to come back into Vogue with the market cycle. But for us financing, we love community banks right now, bridge debt is all the rage.
I mean, when did you ever go into a market and you're by using bridge debt on a stabilized deal? Well, that's, what's going on right now. So you need to really keep up [00:12:00] with what's going on in the market. So that's the three step framework, but then if we extrapolate that out, we also came up with. Well, we call the three pillars of real estate and the three pillars of real estate.
Everyone write this down as the market cycle, its debt and its exit strategy. When Jake and I started buying our assets, we didn't have an exit strategy. We were like every other beginning investor we're going to buy and hold forever. That may be the case. But just make sure that that's exactly what you want to do.
You want to have multiple exit strategies and why you need an exit strategy. If you don't know what your exit strategy is, how do you know, what type of debt are you going to get? If you want to be out of this asset in three to five years, you're not going to go put yield maintenance on a deal like that.
You may want prepayments right. You may want bridge debt, whatever that looks like. So make sure you know, what kind of exit strategies you have and market cycle is very important because in this part of the cycle that we're in right now, we don't want those older assets because we think we're at a top.
I mean, how do you know you're at a top? When it passes and you go, oh, that was the top. That's the only way, you know, but I feel that it's a top because assets are being bought and then [00:13:00] 12 to 18 months later, they're getting flipped out. That sort of starts to noting that we're we're at a top. So when asset prices are so high, you want to start shying away from, you know, properties that are a little bit older, see properties.
Cause if you could buy a C property for a four cap, you better have buying a B property for three, three and a half cap because there's a lot less work. They're new. Tenant basis better. So that's what we're doing with the markets. Like they'll know where you are in the market cycle, so you can, you can execute whatever strategy you're trying to implement. For us,
it's the newer assets. Now that being said, I will still look at an older asset. We're looking at older, we're bidding on an older asset right now. It's gotta be the right price. And we have to make sure that our CapEx budget nails it because we don't want to be, you know, the left holding the bag on this thing, five years down the road, we've got a place roofs and driveways and all.
So when you're bidding on these assets, please make sure that you have a great budget in place and a realistic budget in place. If you're going to buy an older asset in this part of the cycle.
[00:13:56] Sean: Yeah, I'm listening to all the advice you're giving and, and I'm starting to feel better about myself [00:14:00] because we're doing exactly what you're saying and I think we're going to be okay.
And it's, it's funny, the market I'm in, in Dallas is it's, it's accelerated, you know, the appreciation is so accelerated, so your exit strategies can vary and you can look at, you know, you can look at accelerating your exit out of things, you know, pretty quickly. And I was telling you earlier that, you know, our, the asset that we're looking at closing on is I guess we'll be closed by the time it's coming out.
It comes out, but it's already it's already appreciating, you know, just in the time that we've gone into contract to the time we're getting to close. So it's, it's crazy how things change, but knowing and identifying your exit strategy. It sort of solidifies a lot of the other decisions you have to make, like you said, financing and those sorts of things.
That's a good, a good that's a good advice you're giving. And I anyway, I was feeling good about myself for a second. I wanted to let you know that I'm doing a good job. Let's talk about, so you on your website, it shows all the meals that you donated. So is that to talk about a little bit about the, that effort that you have going too.
[00:14:55] Gino Barbaro: So for, you know, Jake and I wrote the book, the honeybee, and we always talk about multi-faceted [00:15:00] multi-family and in the story, it's a business parable and we're all out there. Every one of us, we're all out there trying to make money and what's money we're trying to achieve. And you know, at the end of the day, we have all these complementary streams going on, but you want to have a stream of purpose.
You want your company to have a, a mission and employees nowadays, the millennials. They hadn't, they, what I like about them is it's not just a job for them. They want to have a calling. They want to be part of something. So for us, we chose second harvest food bank, Jake, you know, wants to feed hungry children.
That's what, that's what his gig is. He's like, you know what? Older people, they have options. These little kids. You know, sometimes imagine coming home from school and your parents aren't around and you're hungry and you're starving. There's no food. So we, we we've been working with them for the last three years and we have a food drive every year, starting around Thanksgiving.
They will be at mm four at our live events in October, the 23rd and 24th with a booth there. And that's what we're going to launch our food drive, but that's just one of those initiatives that it's really company-wide. And it's [00:16:00] amazing how I know Sean. You're an, I'm a do this and I'm a do that.. And I was the same way I started at three years ago and it got very little traction.
I found a couple of employees and ran big shout out to Shannon. And John, I said, can you guys help me? They took it over and it's Excel. It's tripled in a year and a half. What I had because they really latched onto it. They totally believe with it with our total core. And all of a sudden you have all these different ideas of, Hey, let's invite him to the live event and let's
do some more sponsors, let's go actually go to their warehouse and start packing bags for kids. So it's been an amazing initiative and I just think everyone nowadays going forward, you should, that should be part of your brand. What do you want to do with your brand? How do you want to give back? How do you want to make an impact in life?
Cause it's not just, you know, the entrepreneur we're out there trying to solve problems, but sometimes it's not just about solving problems to make a profit, but what are we gonna do with those profits? So for us, we just decided that that food bank would be a, you know, we would be a big benefactor for the Jake and Gino Community.
[00:16:57] Sean: Yeah, I love that. I, you know, we, I, my [00:17:00] business I've kind of lacked that component. We, we donate quite a bit to, you know, a couple of small charities and things here and there, but we haven't really made it a part of our mission and part, like you said, purpose. And I, I think for me, that's a, that's a missing piece in what I do every day.
I would really love to have a stronger hold on what we do with, with our, our giving back in our communities and things. So we're, we're working on that and. To where we have a few things that we'd like I love the children, anything to do with children and really kind of gets to me. So I love that idea.
So we're, we're incorporating some of that too in our business. I think that's critical because you know, you hit hard times in your business and you're like, well, you gotta have that stronger, that stronger drive than just, you know, making money. Right. So I think that's important. Well, let's talk about, so we you know, the, the name of the podcast is Next Level American dream podcast, and you obviously out there achieving your American dream.
So I like to talk to people that are doing that, and also people that are helping other people doing that. And you're doing both. So tell us a little bit about what the American dream means to you.
[00:17:55] Gino Barbaro: Wow. I could spend an hour talking about this [00:18:00] because for me, it's real simple. Both my parents came from Italy.
Didn't neither one of them went to finish high school. My mom is really smart, actually, a very intelligent person, but they started a small business and, you know, back in the seventies and eighties, small businesses really thrived and we lived in amazing middle-class lifestyle. It was awesome. I loved it.
That's why I got, that's why I ended up going to the restaurant business because they were doing so well. We did well. Throughout that process. My mom was wise enough to buy a couple of investments. She bought a couple of homes, a couple of rental properties. She actually owned the building where we had the restaurant.
And for me, that American dream was the ability to do whatever you want to. If you want to work hard in this country, you can work hard. If you want to sit home and do nothing, you have that option to do anything. I think the American dream comes with. When you're responsible for your life. When I ultimately became responsible in 2008, I said, I don't want to be doing this anymore.
What do I need to do? And I...the responsibilities. Light just went on in my head. I figured it out. I figured that I needed to go back and get educated. I figured [00:19:00] that I needed to be looking for something else. I think the American dream has changed a lot in the last 30 years. You know, buying a home white picket fence.
I don't think millennials want that now. I think they're saddled with too much debt. Hey, that's where I'm multi-family is great. I think they just want to be comfortable. I think they want have a nice apartment, go home, not worry about, you know, changing the filters and I'll worry about the sprinkler system it's different.
But to me, that American dream is I can create anything I want in this country. And. I came from parents, came from nothing. If I look back, they worked really hard thing is you have to work hard. No, one's going to give it to you in this country. That's the thing, that's what the, everything people misinterpret.
Well, you know, it's all that equity. It's not about equity. It's equality of opportunity. We all need the equal opportunity, but there's definitely not an equality of outcome. And the reason why is most of us quit before we hit the peak and is so much work that we can do and we're not seeing results. And then the results
aren't there and we ended up quitting. That's why it's important to have a [00:20:00] partner. That's why Jake is really vital and crucial to my success. I may have quit two years ago with Jake and Gino. And I said, you know what? This is not worth it. I'm not getting any traction here, but having a partner is, is definitely important for me, but you know, that American dream, you know, I would, if I'm, if I'm listening to this right now, I would answer that question to myself.
You know, if I'm listened to this for me, it's just having that opportunity to do whatever I want in this country. If I don't want to work, I don't have to, but I have the ability to become rich and become wealthy and, and to be able to affect other people's lives.
[00:20:34] Sean: Yeah. That's a great I answer for that. So you mentioned having a partner, what do you think is maybe like one or two things that have made the difference for you?
It sounds like your, your upbringing kind of paved a path for you to be an entrepreneurial person and real estate was kind of already embedded there. So it looks like your path was a little bit set from your parents because of their initiative and what they did when they came here.
But what is it maybe one or two things that have allowed you to kind of take what [00:21:00] you learned from them and take it to the next level. Do you think, is it having a partner?
[00:21:04] Gino Barbaro: I think having a great wife helped out tremendously. Cause my wife was always there. She saw me coming home from the restaurant, tired dejected,
didn't want to know what I wanted to do. We actually left New York four years ago. I mean, how many people can say that their spouse was like, yeah, let's leave. Our families here. Our friends are here, but you know what, you know, you want to leave and go down to Florida and get a reset. I mean, how many, how many spouses say yes to that?
Not very many. Well, mine did. Am I, my wife knew that I needed that change and she supported me and she always believed in me, Hey, listen, she's been financially free since August 30th, 1998. She has, and we had to worry about a bill or anything. That's fine. But at the same time, she's always trusted and believed in me.
And that means a lot. What that entail makes me do is I work my ass off. I don't take anything for granted. And if she gets put that trust in me, she sees, I spent hours and hours reading, learning, working really hard and not taking anything for granted, because if [00:22:00] she's going to put that trust in me, I have to earn that trust .
That's the one thing I think the second thing is when you start out your journey, you starting out at a certain area. And do this and do that. You need to do everything as an entrepreneur in the beginning because that's how you learn. That's how you learn. That's how I learn. I'm a kinesthetic learner.
I need to do it. But as you start growing and you have 20 units and you have 50 units, and then you have 80, then 150, you can't be that same person that started because you won't be able to scale. You have to start hiring people out. You have to start learning about systems and that's difficult. And how do you do that?
Go out and get coached for that as well, spend thousands of dollars, but I'm telling you it is worth it. If we didn't do the scaling up coaching, if we didn't have the EOS traction coaching, we wouldn't be able to hire and scale up. I didn't know what a net promoter score was. I didn't know what any of that stuff was like a cadence of accountability.
You're not born with any of this stuff. No, one's born a natural salesperson. No, one's born in natural investor. These are all skills that were taught and were not taught in school [00:23:00] for a reason because we don't, they don't want to teach employees to think critically. So do you have to learn this as an entrepreneur?
How do you learn it? You, you, you find people who have done it before and then you learn it and tailor it into your own business. And that's where I think for me not being afraid to invest in the business, not being afraid to invest in my education, because I know once I learned something, I'll have that skill learned forever and then I can teach it to others as well.
So investing in yourself and being able to say, you know, I did something like this three years ago, that was fine for me three years ago, but I'm not that same person that I was three years ago, who have I grown into and how do I get better today going forward?
[00:23:37] Sean: Yeah. So a strong partner in life is really the foundation that you're writing on.
Hard work, very important. Taking action is, is critical and continuing to take those actions until you win. And then as you evolve, you want to learn continually learn more and more and more about your business and you want to apply those things that you're learning and in your business and invest reinvest in, in updating systems and processes as you grow.
[00:24:00] Right. Those, those were kind of the three things I heard you say. Right?
[00:24:02] Gino Barbaro: Yes, yes.
[00:24:03] Sean: Okay. Perfect.
[00:24:04] Gino Barbaro: Well, you ripped them down a lot better than I did.
[00:24:06] Sean: Well, I love to hear what you were saying. You could get more detail, but I wanted to just hit the the essence again, but. Well, Gino, you, you and Jake have a lot going on, you have a great community of multi-family education going on and books that you guys have going on, that you're writing and selling and things.
Where can people reach out to you and kind of get more information about what you guys are doing and, and, and take advantage of some of the things you're teaching and that kind of thing, where it's the best place for someone to go?
[00:24:30] Gino Barbaro: Just go to JakeandGino.com. I mean, we have weekly podcasts, we've got four shows going on every week.
We've got a YouTube channel. If you email me gino@jakeandgino.com, I'll send you a PDF copy. Passive investing made simple. It's a great book. Two of our coaches wrote it. We launched with them a couple of weeks ago. Great book on passive investing. It's all about limited partners and active, active, active investors as well.
So just go to JakeandGino.com and email me at gino@jakeandgino.com.
[00:24:58] Sean: Perfect. Yeah, that's awesome. [00:25:00] Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. You guys have some great things going on. It was great to talk to you. I'm glad we got a chance to meet and thanks for coming on.
[00:25:09] Gino Barbaro: Thank you, Sean. Take care everybody.
[00:25:11] Abigail: Thanks for joining us for another episode of next level American dream. If you would like to learn more about what we talked about today, want to contact the team directly or interested in passively investing and being a part of our deal room, head over to our website at www.Thomsonmultifamilygroup.com.
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